网易财经专访比尔·盖茨：我会把钱都捐出去 应向富人多征税
来源:网易财经 | 发布时间:2019-09-20 10:09:06 | 浏览次数：937
网易财经专访比尔盖茨：我会把钱都捐出去 应向富人多征税 （来源：网易财经）
精彩提要：
1、截至2018年，盖茨夫妇累计捐赠达到360亿美元，相当于目前近一个百度的市值。
2、富裕国家的儿童死亡率不到1%，但在极端贫困的国家，很多地区的儿童死亡率超过15%，这在我们看来是最大的不平等之一。
3、我不需要这么多钱。我很早之前就实现了个人对消费的全部需求，可以用这些多余的财富产生一些影响。我并没有牺牲什么，不会因此吃不上饭，这些钱对我来说都是多余的。总有一天我会把所有的钱捐出去。
4、在很多国家内部，不平等状况有所上升。这是一个政策问题，一个国家是否有累进税收制度，向富人多征税，用来构建更强大的保障系统，帮助贫困人群。
网易财经专访比尔·盖茨：我会把钱都捐出去 应向富人多征税
《影响力》 李兆元
“生活是不公平的，要去适应它。” 比尔·盖茨这句话被无数人奉为真理。但身为世界首富，他却用行动为这句话又做了一个注脚：若有余力，还可以改变世界。
说起比尔·盖茨，有很多理由让人羡慕。1975年创办微软；自1995年登顶福布斯富豪榜以来，12年稳坐世界首富宝座；人类历史上首位个人资产超过1000亿美元，却是唯一将360亿美元全部捐出的人。
福布斯富豪榜最新数据显示，截至2019年9月18日，比尔·盖茨财富净值达到1056亿美元，排名世界第二，仅次于亚马逊CEO杰夫·贝索斯。截至2018年，盖茨夫妇实际捐赠达到360亿美元。
在公众眼中，他是财富的代名词，身上永远笼罩着“微软创始人”的光环。但他从微软退休后已经远离商界多年，潜心致力于慈善事业。他赚到了世界，又将所得财富用自己的方式归还给这个世界。
“富裕国家的儿童死亡率不到1%，但极端贫困的国家很多地区的儿童死亡率超过15%。芬兰的儿童死亡率是最低的，不到贫穷的尼日利亚的1/50。”在盖茨看来，这是世界上最大的不平等。
从世界首富转变为世界首善，盖茨却对金钱处之淡然。他笑称，“我不需要这么多钱，这些钱对我来说都是多余的。总有一天我会把所有的钱捐出去。”
网易财经专访比尔·盖茨：我会把钱都捐出去 应向富人多征税
“从首富到首善”
坐落在美国西海岸的西雅图，是一座祥和静谧的城市，没有纽约曼哈顿的喧嚣与繁华。这里诞生了世界上第一杯星巴克，诞生了改变人类历史的波音和微软，市值近万亿美元的亚马逊。这里是比尔·盖茨的故乡。
在西雅图，大家对比尔·盖茨的印象是亲切温和，并没有世界首富的光环，你可能会看到他和平常人一样排队买汉堡。他如同一个坐标，融入这座城市的血脉之中。
访谈当天，他穿着一件浅蓝色的羊毛衫，独自安静地走进访谈间，谦逊温和，彬彬有礼，没有前呼后拥的喧闹。
如今，盖茨虽然依然与微软同在一座城市，但其在微软的身影早已淡出。当互联网在世界范围内风起云涌之时，他却转身退出江湖。
2000年1月，盖茨宣布卸任微软首席执行官，并与妻子梅琳达·盖茨成立了比尔及梅琳达·盖茨基金会（下称“盖茨基金会”），并由此开启了自己人生的第二份事业。这是世界上资产规模最大的私人慈善基金会。截至2018年，盖茨基金会累计捐赠额达到501亿美元，相当于1.33个百度，1.08个京东。
目前，盖茨基金会已经在全球超过100个国家开展慈善工作，重点关注全球健康、全球发展、教育等领域，尤其对解决非洲等发展中国家的健康与不平等问题格外重视。
消除疟疾是盖茨基金会的重点工作目标之一。全球每年约有2亿人感染疟疾，有近60万人因此丧命，其中90%的死亡来自非洲。迄今为止，盖茨基金会共投入近30亿美元赠款用于消除疟疾。
“我们正在和中国开展疟疾药物和（药浸）蚊帐方面的合作。中国政府正在加强与非洲国家的合作，共同努力消除疟疾。希望能在未来的20年至25年之内彻底消除疟疾。”
对于从世界首富到世界首善的转变，盖茨表现得十分淡然。“我很早之前就实现了个人对消费的全部需求，那么可以用这些多余的财富产生一些影响。我并没有牺牲什么，不会因此吃不上饭，这些钱对我来说都是多余的。”他对《影响力》谈到。
网易财经专访比尔·盖茨：我会把钱都捐出去 应向富人多征税
“乍得儿童死亡率是芬兰的55倍 这是最大的不平等”
9月17日，盖茨基金会发布了第三份《目标守卫者报告》（下称《报告》）。报告的最新数据表明，虽然全球在健康和发展方面持续取得进展，但全球不平等问题依然是实现联合国可持续发展目标的主要障碍。
理工科出身的盖茨，习惯基于数据和逻辑思考问题。他强调，世界在改善全球健康和不平等方面已经取得了很大成就。“2000年基金会刚成立时，全球每年有1000万儿童死亡，现在这一数字已经减半，每年有500万儿童死亡，可以说是非常不错的进展。到2030年我们应该能够将数字再次减半，也就是降低到250万。”他提到。
《报告》数据显示，即使在全球最贫困的地区，也有99%以上的社区在儿童死亡率和教育方面得到了改善。但即便如此，全球仍有近5亿人无法获得基本的健康和教育服务。如非洲乍得每天死亡的儿童数量比芬兰一年还多，一个乍得儿童的死亡机率几乎是芬兰儿童的55倍，差距悬殊到令人无法理解。
网易财经专访比尔·盖茨：我会把钱都捐出去 应向富人多征税
“富裕国家的儿童死亡率不到1%，但极端贫困的国家很多地区的儿童死亡率超过15%。芬兰的儿童死亡率是最低的，不到贫穷的尼日利亚的1/50。”在盖茨看来，这是全世界最大的不平等。
此外，国家内部区县之间也存在着巨大的不平等。《报告》指出，以印度为例，在喀拉拉邦的奎隆县，儿童死亡率为1%，人均受教育年限为14年，几乎与全球最发达国家相当。相比之下，北方邦的布道恩县的儿童死亡率则超过8%，人均受教育年限也只有6年。
网易财经专访比尔·盖茨：我会把钱都捐出去 应向富人多征税
除全球健康之外，教育也是盖茨基金会重点考察关注的议题。盖茨认为，人力资本是一个国家释放生产力和实现繁荣的最佳途径。如果缺乏人力资本，对于那些健康状况欠佳和没有接受过教育的人而言，摆脱贫困几乎是天方夜谭。
“健康和教育水平的提高对个人和国家都是非常有利的，是很重要的资产。未来即便有大量机器人和软件应用，人力资本仍然十分重要。”盖茨对《影响力》表示。
做慈善的困惑与挑战
从2017年起的每年秋天，全球政商和文化界的数百位知名人士会在盖茨夫妇的邀请下齐聚纽约。他们并非聚集在一起讨论政商话题，而是去参与一场以致力于实现联合国可持续发展目标的论坛——“目标守卫者”大会。
放眼全球，没有任何一场会议能够像这场大会一样，聚集数百位政要、商人、明星、歌手、平民身份的跨界人士。盖茨夫妇此举，或许反映他们在慈善道路上的焦虑与困境。仅凭个人力量有限，他们希望号召更多领域的人投身其中。
做慈善很容易，要将每一分钱用在刀刃上却很难。商人出身的盖茨，并不把慈善一事当作是“乐善好施”，而是将商业思维运用到慈善事业中，衡量所投入资金的“投资回报率”。
盖茨表示，在挽救儿童生命的过程中，投资回报率最高的是疫苗。他在2017年的年信中写道，“自1990年至今，我们已经挽救了1.22亿儿童的生命。”
对身处美国精英阶层的盖茨来说，要帮助世界上最贫困地区的非洲人群，如何穿越重重政治文化、社会结构和教育体系的阻碍？对此他举例称，如果疫苗对一类人群有效，那么对另一群人也应该有效。“通过研发麻疹或艾滋病疫苗，就算我们不了解当地文化习俗，仍然能够帮助这些人。”
世界虽然在一天天变好，但很多触目惊心的数字依然存在。每一分为改变世界不平等所作出的努力，都值得世人尊重和敬仰。即使困难重重，即使遭遇挫折，盖茨对慈善事业的前景依然乐观。
“我们应该珍视所有的生命，我非常幸运能够拥有一份如此有意义的第二职业。一旦你亲自去过某些地方并且了解了当地的状况，相信你也会认为这是一生当中最值得从事的事业。”
附专访实录
Q: You used to be the richest people in the world. Now you’re the second?
Q：过去您曾经是世界首富，现在您应该是世界第二吧？
A: That’s right. Well as I give money away, I’d be the fourth and the fifth, in someday I’ll give it all away.
A：我一直在把自己的钱捐出去，估计以后会变成第四或者第五，总有一天我会把所有的钱全捐出去。
Q: We want to know, you were once the richest people in the world, now you’re the biggest donor. Why you make this huge shift?
Q：过去您曾经是世界首富，现在您是世界首善，是什么让您发生了这种转变？
A: When I was working at Microsoft, the goal was to make great software. And the fact that created the value of Microsoft ownership, there is a huge amount of wealth. I didn’t expect that you know. I didn’t need that. That doesn't change how many hamburgers I eat or how many sweaters I wear, so I reached the limit sort of personal consumption a long time ago. So, that extra wealth is available to have an impact. And so, that’s why I studied why children died and thought,” Hey, is this being taken care of?” And in that case, I found that almost no money was going to malaria research. And so I found my cause to turn to my second career, which involves giving this money back in partnership with my wife and Warren Buffet. And so, it’s very fun work. It’s working with scientists, and it’s travelling the world; it’s partnering with a government like China saying “You’re the expert, what are they thinking, what can we do together for seeds and vaccines”. Anyway, it’s very enjoyable, so I’m not making any sacrifice, and I’m not giving up my lunch to do this work, it’s all excess money.
A：我在微软工作时，目标是开发出全世界最棒的软件，也因此创造出了巨大的财富，这是我并没有预料到的。但其实我不需要这么多钱，我一顿饭不会因此多吃几个汉堡，也不会多穿几件衣服。我很早之前就实现了个人对消费的全部需求，那么可以用这些多余的财富产生一些影响。我开始研究儿童死亡的原因，思考这些问题是否正在得到解决。那时我发现，疟疾研究几乎得不到任何资金支持。我因此发现了人生第二份事业，与我的夫人和沃伦·巴菲特先生共同投身慈善。这份工作很有趣，可以和很多科学家合作，到世界各地考察，还有机会与政府合作，包括中国。我会咨询各个领域专家们的意见，探讨如何合作研发出更好的种子和疫苗。总之，我非常享受这份工作，我并没有牺牲什么，不会因此吃不上饭，这些钱对我来说都是多余的。
Q: In this year your report, Goalkeepers, you said you’ll keep focusing on inequality. So in your mind, what is the inequality most around the world? Women, education, disease control, or income poverty?
Q：今年的《目标守卫者》报告重点关注不平等问题。在您看来，当今世界上最严重的不平等体现在哪方面？性别、教育、疾病，还是收入？
A: Well, often we talk about income, and that’s pretty important. You know, people living in extreme poverty who don’t have enough resources to buy food always worried about their survival. We really want to get rid of that extreme poverty. But another measure that the foundation has focused a lot on is health. You know, we look at how many children are dying and how we can reduce that number. When we first got started, it was 10 million were dying every year back in the year 2000. And now that’s been cut in half. So it’s about 5 million now. So, that’s really good progress. If you take rich countries, it’s well under 1%, but if you take the poorest countries, there are still places where it’s over 15%. A child in Finland, which is the lowest, had 50 times lower chance of dying than the child in Nigeria, which is a quite poor African country. So that range. You know, our view is that it is one of the greatest injustices, and the world has enough knowledge and resources. We should be able to reduce that dramatically.
A：我们经常讨论收入不平等的问题，这十分重要，世界上还有很多生活在极端贫困中的人口，他们没有足够的钱买食物，生存可能都成问题。我们非常希望能够消除极端贫困。但是另外一个非常重要的指标，也是盖茨基金会的工作重点，就是健康。我们关注全球每年的儿童死亡数量，并尽最大努力降低这一数字。2000年盖茨基金会刚成立时，全球每年有1000万儿童死亡，现在这一数字已经减半，每年有500万儿童死亡，可以说是非常不错的进展。富裕国家的儿童死亡率不到1%，但在极端贫困的国家，很多地区的儿童死亡率超过15%。芬兰的儿童死亡率是最低的，那里儿童死亡的概率不到贫穷的尼日利亚的1/50。这在我们看来是最大的不平等之一。全球现在已经拥有足够丰富的知识和资源，我们应该完全有能力大幅度降低儿童死亡数量。
Q: Every year in the Goalkeepers, on the first page, we saw the 17 goals as topics from the global goals. Which one do you think is easy to achieve, and which one do you think is hard to realise and why?
Q：每年报告的第一页都列上17个全球目标。您认为这些目标中哪个最容易实现？哪个最难实现？原因是什么？
A: Health is very central to all these goals, and that’s where the foundation has chosen to focus. And of course the science of how we make vaccines and how we understand how to stop malaria. Every year the world is getting smarter. So, I put that in a very primary position, because if you’re malnourished and not healthy, then everything else like education or being productive is very very difficult. And if we can really solve health and education, those are the two that to me are enabling. I don’t want to downplay - the environment is very important - all the different goals. But the countries that can take care of themselves are the ones that have really improved health and education. And China is a fantastic example. Starting in 1990, agricultural productivity, investment in education and health. It’s really phenomenal how those things enabled the incredible economic miracle.
A：健康是实现所有目标的核心，基金会也因此把健康作为工作重点。现在我们研发出了多种疫苗，掌握了治愈疟疾的方法，每年都有更加先进的技术产生，健康仍然是最重要的。如果一个人身体不好或者营养不良，接受教育和参加工作都无从谈起。我认为提升人们的教育和健康水平是最有价值的。我并非低估其他议题的重要性，比如环境也非常重要。但只有一个国家的教育和健康水平得到显著提升后，才能自力更生。中国就是一个很好的例子。自从1990年开始，中国在农业、教育和健康领域取得了了不起的进展，这也是中国创造经济奇迹的基石。
Q: So, what's your expectation for the next step for the health, even though it's maybe the equality the most? What's the next step for the foundation you want to do?
Q：接下来您和基金金会在健康领域的工作重点有哪些？
A: Well, I’d highlight two things. First, we still have 5 million children dying every year now. In 2030 we should cut that in half again, get it down to below 2.5 million. And there are some diseases like Poliomyelitis that paralyses children and kill some. That one in the next 3-4 years should be able to be eradicated. Over a longer-term, you know probably in 20-25 years, we should be able to take malaria and eradicate that. That’s still killing, just malaria, over half a million children every year and hurting tens of millions. You know these very aggressive goals. We’re talking with people in China who make malaria drugs and bednets and the government is there strengthening their partnerships with Africa; how can we work together to eliminate malaria.
A：我想强调两件事：首先，目前全球每年依然有500万儿童死亡，到2030年我们应该能够将数字再次减半，也就是降低到250万。目前全球仍有儿童因为脊髓灰质炎导致瘫痪甚至死亡，我们希望未来三四年里能将它彻底根除。更长远来看，我们希望在未来20-25年彻底消除疟疾。疟疾每年能导致50万儿童死亡，遭受这种疾病折磨的人口数量有几千万。这些都是非常远大的目标。我们正在和中国开展疟疾药物和（药浸）蚊帐方面的合作。中国政府正在加强与非洲国家的合作，共同努力消除疟疾。
Q: How do you think China can make more contribution to that?
Q：您认为中国在这过程当中能够作出哪些贡献呢？
A: Absolutely, China’s economic growth has been good for the world. You know China has expertise in many many areas, but now it’s thinking OK and asking African countries what their priorities are. The kind of infrastructure China does is very important. Roads are key to economic growth. But these countries are saying “Hey please help us with malaria” Tanzania as an example where it’s three-ways partnerships now: the Gates Foundation, Tanzania, and China. We’re doing this pilot projects, and we’ve been having some good results. Yes, I think health will be an area that China can help the poor countries a lot.
A：这是毫无疑问的，中国的经济增长为世界做出了巨大的贡献，而且中国在许多领域都有很强的专业能力。目前中国也在寻求帮助非洲国家解决最迫切的问题。中国在非洲建设公路等基础设施十分重要，有助于当地的经济发展。但同时非洲国家也希望中国能帮他们解决疟疾问题。比如在坦桑尼亚，我们现在已经形成了三方合作机制，包括盖茨基金会、中国政府和坦桑尼亚政府共同开展的试点项目，目前已经取得了不错的成果。我认为中国能在健康领域为这些贫困国家提供许多帮助。
Q: Talking about China, we know that the economic growth is so fast in the past decades, and China depends on two factors: one is globalization, and another one is population bonus, but the situation now is complicated. So do you have any suggestion for China and the Chinese young people?
Q：过去几十年中，中国经济的快速增长主要得益于两项因素：一是全球化，二是人口红利。但目前的情况正在变得更加复杂，能否给中国政府和中国年轻人一些建议？
A: Certainly, the quality of education. You know the universities are getting better and better, in some cases like Tsinghua being one of the best in the world, and the other ones are keeping improving. That trend towards the quality of education will allow China in areas with really high-paying jobs and innovative jobs to contribute to both their successes and the world by and large. The economic growth may not achieve the same percentages in the past, but as long as the job market is working well, and the anti-poverty programs are working well, China should be very proud of what it’s doing, even if the absolute economic growth isn’t going to maintain the really high level that you’ve had in the past.
A：教育质量非常重要。现在中国高校的教学水平越来越好，比如清华大学就是世界顶尖学府之一，很多大学的教学水平也在不断提高。教学质量的提升将会为中国创造许多高薪且具有创造性的工作岗位，对个人、中国和世界都有利。中国未来的经济增速可能不会一直保持过去的高速度，但只要劳动力市场仍然健康，减贫计划进展顺利，中国应该为目前的进展感到自豪。
Q: What’s your comment to the globalization? Maybe we can find some hinder on that?
Q：您对当下的全球化局势怎么看？是否遇到了一些阻碍？
A: I’m a huge believer in globalization, and the countries mutually benefit from that. Right now, we see some countries pulling back from that, even in some ways the USA is pulling back from that. I think it will be a strong political debate. I don’t think we’ll see a dramatic reversal, but we see there are some voices that speak out against that, and it would be a good, open discussion. The road for innovation, whether it’s health, climate change, or IT, the pace of innovation is going to stay very strong. And that creates huge job opportunities, including China, is doing great work in those areas.
A：我个人非常支持全球化，这对各国来说都是互惠互利的。现在我们也看到一些国家正在退出全球化，甚至美国在一些方面都是如此。这是一个复杂的政治问题。虽然短时间内很难看到明显的转向，但也有很多反对这种做法的声音，这将引发公开、有益的讨论。至于创新，无论是在医疗健康、气候变化或者信息科技领域，今后创新的步伐都会很快。这会带来很多新的就业岗位，中国在这方面做得非常不错。
Q: That’s good news. In the last Goalkeepers Report, you kept the focus on investing in youth, especially in Africa, because it depends on traditional economics. The healthier you are, the better education for the youth, and you get a better return for that. But do you consider something is changing about the innovation of technology, which has the huge power to change the world? Do you still think the human capital theory is still there?
Q：在去年的《目标守卫者》报告中，您强调对年轻人投资的重要性，尤其是非洲国家，因为非洲主要依靠传统经济产业。年轻人越健康、教育水平越高，对社会的回报就会越大。但您是否考虑过科技创新改变世界的潜力？这种情况下，人力资本理论依然有效吗？
A: Absolutely.
A：这是毫无疑问的。
Q: Why?
Q：为什么呢？
A: Well, the job market is very strong, and the high salaries are there for well-educated people. If you look at the satisfaction and health of those people, it’s very good, so there is a lot of benefit in individual, and for a country, as it invests in health and education of the people. It’s the main asset. Even if we have lots of robots and software, human capital will be super important. Some of the things that require less education like just driving around, it could be substituted, but if anything, that just creates more value to make sure that those educational investments are well done.
A：因为就业市场仍然有着巨大的需求，教育程度高的人往往获得高水平的薪资。他们的生活满意度和健康水平都很高，这点很好，所以健康和教育水平的提高对个人和国家都是非常有利的，是很重要的资产。未来即便有大量机器人和软件应用，人力资本仍然十分重要。可能会有一些不需要那么高教育水平的工作会被取代，比如司机。但我们仍然需要投入足够的教育资源，从而产生更多的价值。
Q: Do you think we can find more opportunities after the Luis Turning Point? Like China, we can still find more and more population bonus from that? Maybe we can use AI and robots. Do you think it's working?
Q：您认为在路易斯拐点之后中国还会有更多的发展机会吗？中国是否继续获得人口红利？还是应该转向人工智能和机器人？
A: Well, I think economic growth can continue even when the workforce is not growing because the productivity of these tools will make the productivity per worker much higher. Even in a society like Japan that is aging, they’ll be able to increase their output which is a good thing, because you want to have those resources to take care of the older generation to help them be able to retire and have benefits. So yes, even as the size of the workforce goes down, the economic opportunities are still huge.
A：我认为，即便中国的劳动力规模不再增长，中国的经济仍然会继续增长，因为这些新的科技工具能够提高人均生产力。即便是日本这样高度老龄化的社会仍然能够通过新兴科技提升人均产出，从而赡养退休的老一代。所以就算劳动力总体规模缩小，中国仍将拥有巨大的经济发展空间。
Q: That’s good. You must know this book.
Q：这本书您一定看过。
A: Yeah. Fantastic.
A：是的，非常精彩。
Q: Have you tried these certain questions?
Q：您做过这些题吗？
A: Yes.
A：做过。
Q: What was the score?
Q：您的得分如何？
A: It's the field I work in. I think I got one wrong.
A：这恰好是我的工作领域。我好像有一道题做错了。
Q: Just one?
Q：只做错了一道题吗？
A: You know, these questions are about my current full-time job. It’s like asking a cab driver about directions. And I was a friend of Hans. His very first speech at TED I was there. And I realized that he’s telling a story better than I’ve ever heard before, including the story of how you improve health, that actually the population goes down, which is very surprising to many people. And that whole way he presented data, my wife and I got to be very good friends with him. It’s a shame that he died.
A：因为这些问题都和我目前的工作有关，这就像问出租车司机路线一样。而且我和汉斯（Hans Rosling）是好朋友，之前他在TED的演讲我也参加了，那是我听过的最精彩的演讲之一。他提到在健康条件改善的情况下，人口数量反而会下降，这让很多人感到惊讶。我和我的夫人都感到很幸运能够和他成为朋友，他的过世也让我们很痛心。
Q: Yes. That’s so sad. But back to the book, the test. I mean, do you know the truth about his word? Before I came, I read this book; I don’t know the truth. I don’t know the data.
Q：的确非常令人遗憾。但回到这些答题上，之前您就知道他说的这些真相吗？我来（西雅图）之前读了这本书，我并不知道他所说的这些真相和数据。
A: Most people, even educated people, get less than 50% right. University professors actually do worse than the average person. He is very articulate about this. When we read about disasters, and the news media does a better job of telling us the worst thing anywhere in the world we read about. When I was young, we didn’t know so much about earthquakes or in other countries. And because as human we like to solve problems, we are always looking at, oh, this is 打印本页 || 关闭窗口
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